Rachel Blau DuPlessis, sections 16 & 29 of 'Draft 85: Hard Copy'
In a special long episode of PoemTalk, Ron Silliman, Jessica Lowenthal, Randall Couch and PoemTalk’s producer and host Al Filreis gathered to discuss two sections of “Draft 85: Hard Copy,” which is the 85th “draft” or canto in Rachel Blau DuPlessis's ongoing long poem Drafts. “Draft 85” is itself a long poem, running from pages 42 to 71 in the book Pitch: Drafts 77-95. This big draft was written between February and May of 2007. All forty sections of “Draft 85” were recorded by the poet for PennSound, in our studios, in October of 2007. We decided to focus on two of those forty sections — sections 16 and 29. The forty sections of “Draft 85” are mapped onto George Oppen’s important long poem, Of Being Numerous, a typescript copy of which Oppen in 1965 had sent to Du Plessis, and to which she responded then, and has, in a sense, been responding here and there since, although never more fully than here in “Hard Copy.” Section 16 of Du Plessis’s poem, like Oppen’s 16th section of his earlier poem, deals with Yahweh’s command to Abraham that he sacrifice Isaac. Section 29 of “Hard Copy” responds to Oppen's 29th section about his relationship with his own daughter by retelling the story in Genesis 31 of Rachel’s theft of the teraphim belonging to her father.
This episode of PoemTalk was directed and engineered by Steve McLaughlin, who, among other things, co-produces PennSound Radio, 24/7 curated streaming from the aural treasure troves of PennSound. The episode was edited, as all installments of PoemTalk are, by the very same Steve McLaughlin.
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Astrid Lorange and Eddie Hopely are a pair of poets living in Sydney, Australia with strong links to the Philly and New York writing scenes. Eddie has an M.F.A. in Creative Writing from Temple University and currently works as a freelance editor, research assistant, and independent scholar. Astrid recently finished her Ph.D. at the University of Technology, Sydney and has taken a position as lecturer at the College of Fine Arts, University of New South Wales. Both are members of the assignment-based writing group Collective Task.
Astrid’s books include FOOD TURNS INTO BLOOD (Gauss PDF, 2013), one that made it alike (Vagabond Press, 2013), Eating and Speaking (Tea Party Republicans Press, 2011), and Minor Dogs (bas-books, 2011). You can find more publications, videos, and recordings on her website. Eddie’s works include SNUG (2013), Power Move (Gauss PDF, 2011), RUDE DOOR (Trees + Squash, 2011), and many more. Together they run the SUS chapbook press.
Ray DiPalma, 'It makes / of nonsense'
Aaron Shurin (then just in from the Bay Area), John Tranter (visiting from Australia), and Charles Bernstein (coming in from New York) joined Al Filreis for this episode of PoemTalk to discuss a poem by Ray DiPalma, “It makes of nonsense.” The poem was written in 1976, and first performed, we think, in 1977. Our text of the poem comes from the poet, and is reproduced below. Our PennSound recording of the poem was segmented from a longer tape of a reading DiPalma gave, along with Michael Lally and Bruce Andrews (quite a threesome in those years), at the Ear Inn in New York City on November 10, 1977; the tape-recording itself was made by the aforementioned Charles Bernstein, one of this episode’s interlocutors.
When the group encounters this passage — “the basis / of this world / the failure / of causality / common / sense is not / what hat / we find there” — we focus on “what hat,” that which we find there once cause-and-effect relations have been deemed to fail. John suggests that a reading of the passage can be straightforward, that hat is a role (as in what hat you wear to signify a job or assumed identity). Thus a “new optimism” augured by this poem might derive from a fresh sense of “common / sense” that does not make identity a function of put-on role. Charles agrees. Aaron and Al suggest a second reading, in which “hat” emerges out of “what” as language, suggesting an alternative to the traditional causality in which a word rather than a thing (“what”) can emerge from a thing, a hat pulled (as it were) out of the poem’s hat. Al and Aaron see the poem as, perhaps only in hindsight, a programmatic poem for L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, and begin to make a list of aesthetic ideas and practices the poem recommends in very the way it is formed to say what it says. Whatever doubts about this Charles and John share, all agree that when the poem turns to cause and effect it offers a radical alternative for “it” (it being the poem or poetic project, the it that the poem makes of nonsense), so that “instead of / basing it / on cause / and effect // they built / it on cause / and perhaps.” Not cause and effect but cause and perhaps. It’s that embrace of perhaps — key to the poem’s open-endedness — that leads to its new optimism. What Deleuze and Guattari call “a concerted deconstruction of the signifier, non-sense erected as a flow,” can a positive step in our efforts to understand how language creates connection. Indeed, Ray DiPalma came across a passage from Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia by Deleuze & Guattari that, he feels, bears special relevance of the poem: "But through the impasses and the triangles a schizophrenic flow moves, irresistibly; sperm, river, drainage, inflamed genital mucus, or a stream of words that do not let themselves be coded, a libido that is too fluid, too viscous: a violence against syntax, a concerted deconstruction of the signifier, non-sense erected as a flow, polyvocity that returns to haunt all relations."
Pictured above at right, from left to right: Charles Bernstein, Al Filreis, Aaron Shurin, and John Tranter. This episode of PoemTalk was directed and engineered by Steve McLaughlin, and edited, as always, by the same talented Steve McLaughlin. Al Filreis is PoemTalk’s creator and producer. Special thanks to Nuria Sheehan and Cathy Halley of the Poetry Foundation for their collaborative efforts and support; to Jessica Lowenthal, Andrew Beal, Lily Applebaum, and others at the Kelly Writers House for space and logistical help; to Chris Martin for his constant technical acumen and fast keyboard fingers; to the thousands of people of ModPo, who generously created a fund to support digital poetic outreach and who tend to listen to the whole series of PoemTalks as if they constitute a survey course introducing contemporary American poetry.
Here now is Ray DiPalma’s poem:
the full we
it is that
has now served
of this world
sense is not
we find there
once it keeps
still and into
it on cause
uncertain in a
— Ray DiPalma (1976)
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Paul Dutton is a poet, essayist, novelist, and free-improvisational musician from Toronto, Ontario. Paul was a member of the seminal sound poetry group The Four Horsemen from 1970 to 1988, and since 1989 he's performed in the improvisational trio CCMC with John Oswald and Michael Snow. Paul has also worked with the vocal art supergroup Five Men Singing, among numerous other collaborations.
Paul's 2000 album Mouth Pieces: Solo Soundsinging is available on PennSound, and his visual work The Plastic Typewriter (1993) is on UbuWeb. You can find an online version of his 1991 poetry collection Aurealities at Coach House Books. Dutton's novel Several Women Dancing was published by The Mercury Press in 2002.
For this 32nd podcast in the PennSound Podcast series, Nick DeFina and Amaris Cuchanski collaborated to present an anthology of seven recordings from among those produced in association with Alcheringa magazine by Dennis Tedlock and Jerome Rothenberg. For Jacket2’s “Reissues” department, Danny Snelson has prepared a digital edition of the EP audio inserts that appeared with the magazine in each issue. Here are the seven recordings chosen for our podcast anthology:
1) Jerome Rothenberg, “The Tenth Horse-Song of Frank Mitchell” (1971)
2) Andrew Peynesta, “Once Long Ago,” in the original Zuni language (1973)
3) Jaime de Angulo, “Story of the Gilak Monster” (1975)
4) Son House, “Conversion Experience Narrative” (1976)
5) Awawo, Ogiepo, Asegieme, “Nigerian Songs of Ritual License” (1976)
6) Reverend W.T. Goodwin, “Easter Sunrise Sermon” (1971)
7) Hotoke-Oroshi, “Manifestations of the Dead” (1953)